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	<title>Comments on: If It Doesn&#8217;t Have a Tail It&#8217;s NOT a Monkey</title>
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	<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/</link>
	<description>I&#039;m not dead yet!</description>
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		<title>By: Clever Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-272</guid>
		<description>One more point.  Science, in my opinion, is often taught incorrectly.  

My experience in high school was that you had a biology class in 9th grade that basically consisted of some basic anatomy and systematics/classification (and in the mid 1980s, even public schools were very cautious about teaching much about evolution - I suspect the 1982 McLean v. Arkansas case was still in the minds of school boards, and the easiest way to avoid a lawsuit would have been to downplay the entire topic).  10th grade was general chemistry.  11th grade, if you were in the right track was physics.  It&#039;s not difficult to see how people could find themselves in a college level biology class hearing about evolution for the first time.  If you&#039;ve been raised in a culture that denies evolution, I can imagine that would be a very uncomfortable experience.

The problem is that biology (at a cell level) is largely applied chemistry and chemistry is basically applied physics, and it&#039;s important to be aware of those connections (not in excruciating detail really, but in broad overview).   This didn&#039;t click solidly for me until well into college, when I was fortunate enough to have an organic chemistry professor whose research area was antiretrovirals &lt;i&gt;at the same time&lt;/i&gt; that I was taking cell biology, and the lecture discussions overlapped.  

Anyway, I think that if people were taught the connections and dependencies between scientific fields, they&#039;d realize that when they go trying to attack evolution, they&#039;re really attacking the chemistry and physics that&#039;s at work behind the biology.   Some groups will &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; do this, though, and will continue to produce folks who are inclined to complain about well-intentioned park rangers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more point.  Science, in my opinion, is often taught incorrectly.  </p>
<p>My experience in high school was that you had a biology class in 9th grade that basically consisted of some basic anatomy and systematics/classification (and in the mid 1980s, even public schools were very cautious about teaching much about evolution &#8211; I suspect the 1982 McLean v. Arkansas case was still in the minds of school boards, and the easiest way to avoid a lawsuit would have been to downplay the entire topic).  10th grade was general chemistry.  11th grade, if you were in the right track was physics.  It&#8217;s not difficult to see how people could find themselves in a college level biology class hearing about evolution for the first time.  If you&#8217;ve been raised in a culture that denies evolution, I can imagine that would be a very uncomfortable experience.</p>
<p>The problem is that biology (at a cell level) is largely applied chemistry and chemistry is basically applied physics, and it&#8217;s important to be aware of those connections (not in excruciating detail really, but in broad overview).   This didn&#8217;t click solidly for me until well into college, when I was fortunate enough to have an organic chemistry professor whose research area was antiretrovirals <i>at the same time</i> that I was taking cell biology, and the lecture discussions overlapped.  </p>
<p>Anyway, I think that if people were taught the connections and dependencies between scientific fields, they&#8217;d realize that when they go trying to attack evolution, they&#8217;re really attacking the chemistry and physics that&#8217;s at work behind the biology.   Some groups will <i>never</i> do this, though, and will continue to produce folks who are inclined to complain about well-intentioned park rangers.</p>
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		<title>By: Clever_Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-270</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever_Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-270</guid>
		<description>He kind of over-simplified the bat thing.  They&#039;re closer to primates than to rodents, but they&#039;re still quite distinct.  (I can&#039;t find any reference to bats having true opposable thumbs, either, but if they do, they&#039;re a homologous feature.) 
 
Anyway, one of the things that greatly disturbs me is that a lot of the folks who deny evolution and get worked into a frenzy at the mere mention of it don&#039;t really even know what it is they&#039;re objecting to - they&#039;ve been fed such a distorted version of it that they can&#039;t possibly form a valid opinion of the matter.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He kind of over-simplified the bat thing.  They&#039;re closer to primates than to rodents, but they&#039;re still quite distinct.  (I can&#039;t find any reference to bats having true opposable thumbs, either, but if they do, they&#039;re a homologous feature.) </p>
<p>Anyway, one of the things that greatly disturbs me is that a lot of the folks who deny evolution and get worked into a frenzy at the mere mention of it don&#039;t really even know what it is they&#039;re objecting to &#8211; they&#039;ve been fed such a distorted version of it that they can&#039;t possibly form a valid opinion of the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: JRR</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-269</link>
		<dc:creator>JRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-269</guid>
		<description>Last thought: Pity the poor park ranger with his biology undergrad degree and his PhD in Education having to put up with these people.  This man&#039;s day was supposed to end at 8:30 pm, but he took our large group of cubs, spent extra time, made them a campfire and stayed until 10:00 pm.  Even if you disagree with his talk, why would you complain?  (insert rant here) Did I mention there was no charge?  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last thought: Pity the poor park ranger with his biology undergrad degree and his PhD in Education having to put up with these people.  This man&#039;s day was supposed to end at 8:30 pm, but he took our large group of cubs, spent extra time, made them a campfire and stayed until 10:00 pm.  Even if you disagree with his talk, why would you complain?  (insert rant here) Did I mention there was no charge?</p>
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		<title>By: JRR</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-268</link>
		<dc:creator>JRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-268</guid>
		<description>Part II - Night Hike/Fossils 
 
I wonder how these fragile, easily confused cubs reconciled these beliefs with the visitor center display and explaination of fossil sharks teeth from the Miocene period.  We spent the day finding these on the day hike to aptly named Fossil Beach.  Although come to think of it, I&#039;m not sure these particular parents let their cubs in the visitor center...  (apologize for length) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part II &#8211; Night Hike/Fossils </p>
<p>I wonder how these fragile, easily confused cubs reconciled these beliefs with the visitor center display and explaination of fossil sharks teeth from the Miocene period.  We spent the day finding these on the day hike to aptly named Fossil Beach.  Although come to think of it, I&#039;m not sure these particular parents let their cubs in the visitor center&#8230;  (apologize for length)</p>
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		<title>By: JRR</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator>JRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 00:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-267</guid>
		<description>Related experience: I was recently with &#039;cubs&#039; on a night hike.  The Va. park ranger gave a 30 min preparatory talk.  Great stuff: insightful, knowledgable, and interesting for young and old.  One factoid among many.  He mentioned that bats used to belong to the rodent classification when he was growing up, but have now been moved to the family that includes humans because of their true opposible thumbs.  Some primates come close, but apparently only bats have true opposible thumbs.  &#039;They&#039;re no humans, of course, they&#039;re still bats, but we catagorize by characteristics.&quot; 
 
Cue great hike, owl calling, frog calling experience.  At the end of the hike, in a properly contrite tone, this dedicated public servant apologized to us for implying that humans were animals and that he didn&#039;t mean to confuse the cubs with evolution.  Evidently, one of the parents complained. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Related experience: I was recently with &#039;cubs&#039; on a night hike.  The Va. park ranger gave a 30 min preparatory talk.  Great stuff: insightful, knowledgable, and interesting for young and old.  One factoid among many.  He mentioned that bats used to belong to the rodent classification when he was growing up, but have now been moved to the family that includes humans because of their true opposible thumbs.  Some primates come close, but apparently only bats have true opposible thumbs.  &#039;They&#039;re no humans, of course, they&#039;re still bats, but we catagorize by characteristics.&quot; </p>
<p>Cue great hike, owl calling, frog calling experience.  At the end of the hike, in a properly contrite tone, this dedicated public servant apologized to us for implying that humans were animals and that he didn&#039;t mean to confuse the cubs with evolution.  Evidently, one of the parents complained.</p>
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		<title>By: Clever Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-195</guid>
		<description>If I start another blog, it&#039;s going to be named &lt;i&gt;The Condescending Nitpicker&lt;/i&gt;.   
Honestly, the last thing I want to do is ruin someone&#039;s day by causing a scene in a zoo.  In a very small crowd, I&#039;d probably offer a comment.  If someone happens to ask me a question, I&#039;d certainly answer.  In a large group of random people, the situation could turn sour pretty fast.   

I thought the video was useful in that it gets across a significant point, although it has some weaknesses.  In addition to the one you mentioned, very small children won&#039;t get the joke at the end with the cow, and may conclude that &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; with a tail is a monkey.  If it had proceded as:  

IF ((monkey shaped) AND (has tail)) THEN (monkey)  
ELSE  
IF ((monkey shaped) AND (no tail)) THEN (ape)  

It might have been more technically accurate, and probably wouldn&#039;t still be stuck in my head. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I start another blog, it&#039;s going to be named <i>The Condescending Nitpicker</i>.<br />
Honestly, the last thing I want to do is ruin someone&#039;s day by causing a scene in a zoo.  In a very small crowd, I&#039;d probably offer a comment.  If someone happens to ask me a question, I&#039;d certainly answer.  In a large group of random people, the situation could turn sour pretty fast.   </p>
<p>I thought the video was useful in that it gets across a significant point, although it has some weaknesses.  In addition to the one you mentioned, very small children won&#039;t get the joke at the end with the cow, and may conclude that <i>anything</i> with a tail is a monkey.  If it had proceded as:  </p>
<p>IF ((monkey shaped) AND (has tail)) THEN (monkey)<br />
ELSE<br />
IF ((monkey shaped) AND (no tail)) THEN (ape)  </p>
<p>It might have been more technically accurate, and probably wouldn&#039;t still be stuck in my head.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Zelinsky</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Zelinsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-194</guid>
		<description>This is one issue I&#039;m always a bit divided on about correcting when I hear people make this mistake.  If this occurred in a zoo setting I would likely have made the correction. 
 
The situation where it is more difficult is when talking to creationists, especially YECs. Under certain circumstances, it is rhetorically useful to make the YECs (or bystanders who are watching) understand that the YECs know so little biology that they can&#039;t get basic terminology right . However, if this isn&#039;t done right it comes across as condescending nitpicking.  
 
Incidentally, I&#039;m not sure I like that video from a pedagogical perspective. It seems to combine two separate lessons: correct classification of monkeys and apes and correct use of binary attributes in classifying. However, the combination of the two could possibly confuse children who are watching. In particular, I suspect that many children will come away from watching that video without a clear understanding that apes are in fact the monkey-shaped beings without tales.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one issue I&#039;m always a bit divided on about correcting when I hear people make this mistake.  If this occurred in a zoo setting I would likely have made the correction. </p>
<p>The situation where it is more difficult is when talking to creationists, especially YECs. Under certain circumstances, it is rhetorically useful to make the YECs (or bystanders who are watching) understand that the YECs know so little biology that they can&#039;t get basic terminology right . However, if this isn&#039;t done right it comes across as condescending nitpicking.  </p>
<p>Incidentally, I&#039;m not sure I like that video from a pedagogical perspective. It seems to combine two separate lessons: correct classification of monkeys and apes and correct use of binary attributes in classifying. However, the combination of the two could possibly confuse children who are watching. In particular, I suspect that many children will come away from watching that video without a clear understanding that apes are in fact the monkey-shaped beings without tales.</p>
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		<title>By: Clever Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-192</guid>
		<description>I could &lt;em&gt;probably&lt;/em&gt; manage to say it politely...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could <em>probably</em> manage to say it politely&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-191</guid>
		<description>CB-
If you had spoken up, then there might be a post about you on her blog about the know-it-all guy who embarrassed her in front of her daughter and ruined her outing!  You never know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CB-<br />
If you had spoken up, then there might be a post about you on her blog about the know-it-all guy who embarrassed her in front of her daughter and ruined her outing!  You never know&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Clever Badger</title>
		<link>http://www.cleverbadger.net/wordpress/2009/04/02/if-it-doesnt-have-a-tail-its-not-a-monkey/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Clever Badger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 13:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleverbadger.net/?p=266#comment-190</guid>
		<description>Stevie -

The kids I had with me (my two plus the one of my daughter&#039;s friends) got the monkey/ape lecture as we were moving to the next exhibit.  

I should have spoken up - in a smaller crowd I would have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stevie -</p>
<p>The kids I had with me (my two plus the one of my daughter&#8217;s friends) got the monkey/ape lecture as we were moving to the next exhibit.  </p>
<p>I should have spoken up &#8211; in a smaller crowd I would have.</p>
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